Ua kākau hou ʻo Hungarian nationalists i ka moʻolelo o Romania ma Wikipedia?
Ua hoʻopiʻi kekahi mea hoʻohana Reddit no ka kākau hou ʻana o kahi hui o Hungarian nationalists i nā ʻatikala mōʻaukala e pili ana iā Romania a me ka lāhui Romanian ma ka Wikipedia English. Manaʻo ka hui e hōʻike i nā Romanians ma ke ʻano he poʻe malihini i ka Carpathian Basin, e hōʻea mai ana mai nā Balkans wale nō i ka kenekulia 12. Ua ʻōlelo ʻia ka moʻolelo moʻolelo Romanian ʻo Romanians nā mamo a nā Roma, nāna i lanakila iā Dacia i ke kenekulia 2 a noho ma laila a hiki i 271 AD.
Aia ʻo Romania i ʻehā mau ʻāina mōʻaukala: Wallachia, Moldavia, Dobruja, a me Transylvania (me Banat, Crișana, a me Maramureş). Mai loko mai o ia mau ʻāina ʻehā, ʻo Transylvania no ke Aupuni Hunegaria no hoʻokahi mileniuma (896-1918), i noho ʻia e Hungarians, Germans, a me Romanians.
I ka makahiki 896, i ka wā o ka Conquest of the Carpathian Basin e Árpád, ua loaʻa i ka poʻe naʻi aupuni Hungarian nā Romanians ma Transylvania, wahi a nā mea kākau moʻolelo Romanian. Kūleʻa pinepine lākou i ka Hungarian Anonymus's Gesta Hungarorum, e hōʻike ana i ka lanakila ʻana o ka Carpathian Basin ma ke ʻano he hakakā a lanakila i ka poʻe ʻōiwi. Poina iā lākou ua hana ʻo Anonymus i nā mea he nui i kāna hana e hoʻolilo iā Árpád a me kāna mau alakaʻi i poʻe koa nui ma mua o ko lākou ʻoiaʻiʻo.
Hoʻolaha ka moʻolelo moʻolelo Romanian i ka hoʻomau Daco-Roman, e ʻōlelo ana ua Romanized nā Roma i ka lehulehu holoʻokoʻa o Dacia ma lalo o ʻelua mau kenekulia. I ka wā i haʻalele ai nā legiona i ka panalāʻau, ua noho ka poʻe Romanized a ola no nā kenekulia. No laila, i ka hiki ʻana mai o Hungarians, loaʻa iā lākou nā Romanians ma Transylvania a lanakila iā lākou, e like me kā Anonymus i kākau ai i kāna gesta.
I kēia manawa, ʻōlelo ka manaʻo o ka neʻe ʻana ua hōʻea nā Romanians i ka Carpathian Basin i ka makahiki 12 wale nō mai ka Balkans. Ua ʻōlelo ka manaʻo ʻaʻole i noho ka poʻe Romania ma ka ʻākau o ka muliwai Danube a hiki i ke kenekulia 12.
Hoʻolaha nā mea hoʻohana a me nā mea hoʻokele Wikipedia Hungarian i ka manaʻo immigration?
E like me ka LIKE mea hoʻohana, he pōʻai o nā mea hoʻohana Wikipedia Hungarian e hoʻolaha ana i kēlā manaʻo ma nā ʻatikala he nui e pili ana i ka moʻolelo o Romania a i ʻole Romania. Ua ʻōlelo ka mea hoʻohana Reddit e holoi a kākau hou i nā mea a pau i ʻōlelo ʻia aia nā Romanians i ka Carpathian Basin ma mua o ke kenekulia 12.
Eia kekahi, hoʻolaha ka poʻe Hungarian nationalists i nā moʻolelo wahaheʻe e pili ana i nā Romanians, wahi a ka mea hoʻohana Reddit. "Ke ho'āʻo nei lākou e hāʻawi i ke ʻano o ka Romanian i loaʻa mai ka ʻōlelo Slavic a i ʻole Albanian, a i ʻole e kākau hou i nā hanana mōʻaukala kahi i hoʻoluhi ʻia ai lākou a hoʻohuli iā ia ma luna o nā Romanians me he mea lā ua hoʻokaumaha ʻia lākou e ka poʻe Romanians a i ʻole e hōʻike i ka poʻe Romanians he poʻe pōā, subhumans. etc. ", kākau ʻo ia.
Ua lawe mai ka mea hoʻohana Reddit i ka "ʻO Vlachs” ʻatikala ma ke ʻano he laʻana. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia ua kākau hou ʻia ʻo 53.9% o ka ʻatikala e nā mea hoʻohana ʻelua Hungarian, CriticKende a me OrionNimrod. Holoi lākou i nā mea a pau e hoʻokomo i nā Romanians (Vlachs) ma ka ʻākau o ka Danube ma mua o ke kenekulia 12 a kākoʻo i kā lākou mau manaʻo me nā kumu like ʻole e hoʻokō i nā lula Wikipedia.
Ua ʻōlelo ka mea hoʻohana Reddit he ʻāpana nā mea hoʻohana Wikipedia ʻelua o ka pūnaewele nationalist Hungarian. Mahalo i kā lākou hana, hoʻomaka ka poʻe Romanian e noʻonoʻo nei iā Wikipedia ma ke ʻano he kumu hilinaʻi e manaʻoʻiʻo ua hele mai lākou i ka makahiki 12 wale nō i ka Carpathian Basin.
Kākau pū ʻo ia e pili ana i ʻelua mau luna Wikipedia e hana ana ma lalo o nā inoa inoa Borsoka a me Fakirbakir. Hoʻopuka hou kēlā mau mea hoʻohana i nā mea āpau ma Wikipedia a hoʻolaha i ka manaʻo immigration, wahi a ka mea hoʻohana Reddig.
E heluhelu pū hoʻi:
e ʻoluʻolu e hāʻawi i kahi hāʻawi ma aneʻi
Nuhou wela
He aha ka mea i hana i kēia lā ma Hungary? – 11 Mei, 2024
E hoʻolaʻa hou ʻia ka hana ʻana o nā ʻōpala Hungarian me ke kōkua Kina
ʻO Budapest ma waena o nā wahi kiʻekiʻe 10 ʻEulopa no nā mea aloha kiʻi
Pilikia me ka lele Wizz Air? Kāhea i kēia helu kelepona 'huna' no nā peni!
PM Orbán: ʻO ke koho balota o EU i Iune i hoʻoholo i ka mōʻaukala o ʻEulopa
E hoʻopili ʻo Hungary iā ʻAsuria a me nā Balkans me ke kōkua Kina a me ka palena palena kiʻekiʻe o ʻEulopa
13 Comments
ʻO ka ʻeha no ka poʻe ʻōiwi Romanian e like me ia, ʻaʻohe kākoʻo no ka Daco/Roman continuity fairytale. ʻO nā ʻoiaʻiʻo e kūʻē ana i kēia 'manaʻo' penei:
1. Ua luku ʻia ka heluna kanaka Dac ma hope o ko lākou kumakaia mau ʻana i nā kuʻikahi me nā naʻi aupuni o Roma. 2. ʻO ka manawa e pono ai no ka Romanization ma nā panalāʻau ʻē aʻe (Germania, Gallia etc.) ua ʻoi aku ia ma mua o 3 mau keneturi, ʻoiai ua noho ko Roma ma Dacia ma lalo o 2 mau kenekulia. 3. ʻAʻohe Dac ames ma ka stele i ʻike ʻia ma Dacia. 4. ʻAʻohe moʻomeheu waiwai/mea i waiho ʻia e Dacs ma hope o ka haʻalele ʻana o nā legiona Roma. 5. He mau inoa ʻāina Slavic wale nō (e like me Tirnava, Toplica etc.) ma ka ʻāina ʻo Transylvania. 6. ʻO ka hapa nui o nā inoa Romanian o nā hale i loaʻa mai Hungarian (Oradea, Timisoara, Arad etc.) e hōʻike ana i ka hōʻea ʻana o ka poʻe Hungarian ma mua o ka Romanian. 7. He poe manaoio ko Hungaria i ka Katolika Komohana, he poe orthodox ko Romania. 8. ʻAʻohe hale Romanian e pili ana ma mua o ke kenekulia 13. 9. Loaʻa nā ʻano like ʻole me ka ʻōlelo Albania.
Hiki iā mākou ke kapa i kēia "The War of the Words."
Ma ka ʻoiaʻiʻo, ʻoi aku ka nui o ka poʻe Hungarian i ka "Dacians" a me ka "moʻolelo" Romanian ma mua o ka poʻe Romanian ponoʻī. ʻIke maopopo ka poʻe Romanian i ka ʻōlelo Romance like loa me ka ʻItalia, Pukiki, Palani a me Paniolo; akā naʻe, ʻōlelo ka poʻe Hungarian nationalists (he nui loa o lākou) ua hana ʻia ka ʻōlelo Romanian i kekahi manawa i ka makahiki 1860 i mea e "pani ai i kā lākou ʻōlelo Bulgarian (a) Albanian" (no ka mea, ʻo ia ka manaʻo nui). ʻO kēia mau mea a pau ma muli o ke Kuikahi o Trianon o 1919 kahi i koi ʻia ai ʻo Hungary e kau inoa ma luna o nā wahi he nui o ko lākou aupuni Austro-Hungarian i hoʻopau ʻia i kēia manawa i hāʻule ma hope o ke kaua honua mua. I loko o hoʻokahi haneli, ʻaʻole hiki i ka hapa nui o Hungarian ke hoʻopaʻa inoa i ko lākou mau kupuna kāne i kau inoa ma luna o Transylvania; a inā mākou e nānā mai ka moʻolelo mōʻaukala, no ka poʻe Roma i lanakila ma ka 106 AD. He aupuni kaumaha loa ia e koho ai ka hapa nui o Hungarian e noho ma…
ʻAʻole ʻo Wikipedia kahi kumu noiʻi kūpono, no ka mea, ua kālai ʻia ʻo ia e kona mau luna hoʻomalu a me kāna mau mea kōkua. ʻOi aku ka hilinaʻi o nā kumu ʻikepili pūnaewele ʻē aʻe.
Manaʻo wau e hoʻāʻo wale ana kēlā poʻe Hu nationalists e pakele i ka ʻeha o kēia wā. Pono lākou e huhū nui ʻaʻole wale no ka mea ʻoi aku ka nui o Romania ma mua o Hungary, no ka ʻili a me ka heluna kanaka, akā no ka emi ʻana o ka lāhui Hungarians i nā helu ma nā wahi āpau, ma Hungary a ma nā ʻāina ma mua o WW1. ʻOiai ma Transilvania, ua emi paha ko lākou helu mai kahi kokoke i ʻelua miliona a, manaʻo wau, ʻaʻole i lalo o hoʻokahi miliona. A i kēia manawa, ke holo maikaʻi nei ka hoʻokele waiwai o Romania, ʻoiai ʻo ka hoʻokele waiwai o Hungary (koe wale nō ʻo Orbán a me kāna ʻohana) ua pau.
ʻO Samuel Zalanyi, ke manaʻo nei au e hele mai ana ka manaʻo ʻo Hungarian mai iā ʻoe, ʻaʻole e haʻi aku ʻaʻole ʻoe e haʻi i nā ʻoiaʻiʻo, akā ʻaʻole i hōʻoia ʻia. ʻO ka haʻi ʻana i nā inoa kūlanakauhale i kapa ʻia ma hope, ʻaʻole ia he ʻoiaʻiʻo, ʻo ka poʻe Romanians i orthodox ʻaʻole ia he ʻoiaʻiʻo ʻo ka poʻe Hungarian i Transylvania ma mua. , no laila e pau ka paulele ʻana i nā palapala Hungaria wale nō.
ʻOiaʻiʻo hoihoi. ʻO kekahi mea hoihoi, ʻo ia ka nui o ka lehulehu o Roma i kēlā me kēia manawa.
@Samuel Zalanyi hiki ke hoʻopiʻi ʻia nā ʻōlelo a pau āu i hana ai, e hele pakahi kāua:
1. Hoʻopau ʻia ka heluna kanaka Dac : Kūʻē nā hōʻike archeological a me nā hōʻike i kākau ʻia i kāu ʻōlelo. Ua ʻike maoli mākou ua noho ʻia ʻo Ulpia Traiana Sarmisegetuza a hiki i ka hopena o ke kenekulia 5 e ka poʻe noho noho a aia nō hoʻi nā hōʻike i kākau ʻia no nā dacs manuahi e kūʻē ana i ke aupuni Roma (carpii, costoboci, etc.). Manaʻo wau ua lawa kēia i nā hōʻike e hōʻole ai i kāu koi mua.
2. ʻO ka manawa e pono ai no ka romanization. ʻOiai he nui ka manawa e pono ai no ka romanisation, ʻike mākou ua hoʻomaka maikaʻi ka pilina ma waena o ka honua Roma a me Dacia ma mua o ka lanakila ʻana a hoʻopau maikaʻi ʻia ma hope o ka haʻalele ʻana o ka hoʻokele Roma. Eia kekahi, ʻo ka romanisation i loaʻa ma muli o ka neʻe ʻana o ka heluna kanaka, ua kono ʻia ka nui o nā poʻe noho mai ka honua Roma i kā lākou Dacia lanakila hou.
3. ʻAʻole maopopo iaʻu i kāu helu ʻekolu no laila e waiho wau e like me ia.
4. Eia hou, kākoʻo nā hōʻike archelogical i ka noho ʻana o kekahi o ka poʻe ma laila.
5. Aia kekahi mau inoa ʻāina ʻē aʻe i kūʻē i kāu ʻōlelo (Olt, Mures, Cris, Tisa, Somes, Timis, etc.)
6. He moʻomeheu kuaʻāina ʻo Romanians a hiki i ka mōʻaukala hou, ʻo ia ke kumu i hele mai ai ko mākou manawa no ke kūlanakauhale mai Hungarian (Varad).
7. Ua hoʻoikaika ʻia ka poʻe Romania e ke aupuni Bulgarian no laila ke kumu i lawe ai lākou i ka Orthodoxy. ʻAʻole ia e hōʻoia i kekahi mea.
8. Eia hou, ʻo ka poʻe Roma, he moʻomeheu kuaʻāina lākou a ʻo ka hapa nui o ko lākou mau hale i hana ʻia me ka pālolo a me ka mauʻu. Eia nō naʻe, ua kūkulu ʻia kekahi mau mea i ka makahiki 9 (Dăbâca paʻa).
9. Hāʻawi ka poʻe Romanian i nā huaʻōlelo 160-200 me Albania. ʻAʻole nui kēlā ʻōlelo. A ʻo ke kumumanaʻo e pili ana i kēia, ʻo ka Illyrians i pili i kahi pilina ʻōlelo pili me ka dacian a i ʻole kekahi manaʻo ʻē aʻe ʻo ka poʻe Albania i kēia manawa e noho nei i Serbia i kēia lā a ua hoʻoneʻe ʻia i ka hema i ka wā o ka neʻe ʻana o Slavic.
ʻO ka ʻoiaʻiʻo maoli ʻo nā manaʻo ʻelua he mau plotholes nui (immigration theory- inā ua neʻe ka poʻe Roma i ka ʻākau e hoʻomaka ana i ke kenekulia 12, ʻo ia ka hōʻike i kākau ʻia?) ʻO ia ka manaʻo ʻepekema i kēia manawa, ʻaʻole nā manaʻo kālai'āina mai nā ʻaoʻao ʻelua.
Manaʻo wau ua manaʻo kekahi poʻe Hungarian e noho nei lākou i ke kenekulia XIX. A ʻoiaʻiʻo nō hoʻi kona alakaʻi i kēia manawa a me kāna mau mandarines. Pehea e hiki ai iā ʻoe ke kūleʻa i ke kenekulia XXI inā ʻo kou ʻano noʻonoʻo ka mea o 150 i hala? E wehewehe paha ia i ke kumu i hoʻi hope ai ʻo Hungary i nā ʻano he nui.
Ma ke ʻano he mea hoʻoponopono Wiki, ua ʻimi au, nānā au i ka moʻolelo, ka nūhou hoʻopunipuni, hoʻomaka ia ma aneʻi:
https://solidnews.ro/alexa-ungurii-rescriu-istoria-romaniei-pe-wikipedia/
ʻO kēia ka papa hoʻolaha admin kahi e hōʻike ai nā mea hoʻohana i nā hanana. He hōʻike mua ʻole kēia mai nā makahiki i hala aku nei mai 2021:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1073#User:Borsoka_and_User:Fakirbakir
Maikaʻi ka heluhelu ʻana i ka hōʻike piha a me nā manaʻo: ua hōʻole nā mea hoʻohana Wiki English iā ia, a ʻōlelo pū nā mea hoʻohana Romanian he hōʻike kumu ʻole ia. ʻO ka mea hope loa, ua haʻalele ka mea hoʻohana nūhou (ʻo ia ma kahi o 100 Wikipedia, ʻaʻole ia he admin!) i kāna hōʻike ponoʻī:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=1035287779
ʻO ka manaʻo ʻo Daco-Roman he kumu noʻonoʻo ʻo Romanian nationalist, ʻoiai ke hōʻole nei ka mōʻaukala Hungarian holoʻokoʻa. No laila, ʻaʻole ia he "network of nationalist Hungarians" inā hoʻohui nā mea hoʻoponopono Hungarian i nā ʻike ma Wikipedia ʻaʻole ia ka manaʻo o ka nationalist Romanian. ʻAʻole e lilo koke nā mea hoʻoponopono Hungarian i "nationalists" no ka mea he ʻokoʻa ko lākou manaʻo ma mua o ka manaʻo ʻo Romanian nationalist. Ma ke ala, ua hōʻike ʻia ka manaʻo Romanian ma ka English Wiki e pili ana i nā ʻatikala pili Romanian, e nānā iā ʻoe iho.
ʻAʻole au i manaʻo e lilo ka poʻe hoʻoponopono Hungarian i "nā lālā o ka ʻoihana aupuni" inā hoʻihoʻi lākou i nā hoʻoponopono, e like me ke aliʻi ʻo Matthias o Hungaria ʻo "Lii Romanian" a i ʻole "ka hapa nui o nā Romanians" ma Transylvania:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Matthias_Corvinus&diff=prev&oldid=1211827243
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_Transylvania&diff=prev&oldid=1211522374
Ua nānā au i ka hoʻopaʻapaʻa ma nā ʻaoʻao kamaʻilio e pili ana i kēia hōʻike, ʻike wau i nā mea hoihoi:
No ka laʻana, makemake kekahi mea hoʻoponopono Romania e kau i kahi palapala ʻāina i Wikipedia kahi ʻo Austria (Burgenland) + Kroasia + Serbia + piha ʻo Hungary he "ʻāina kahiko Romanian ma waena o 800-1400 me nā haneli o nā wahi noho Romanian":
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vlachs&diff=prev&oldid=1152091631#/media/File:Romanian_settlements,_9th-14th_Century.jpg
Eia ʻo Romania he ʻāina nui loa ma waena o 800-1300:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Romanian_states_in_the_9th-13th_centuries.svg
2023:
https://media.szekelyhon.ro/pictures/0000001/0000095/nn_uzvolgye_2k23_ok_21_pnt_01.jpg
Tilte: "Ua hele mai nā Hungarian Barbarian mai Mongolia mai a hao i ko mākou mau ʻāina i ka makahiki 1290. Ma hope o kēlā, lawe pū ka poʻe Mongol-Hungarians i ko lākou ʻohana ma ʻaneʻi."
Ua hōʻike nā mea hoʻoponopono ma ka ʻaoʻao kamaʻilio i kēlā mau palapala ʻāina e pili ana i ke aʻo ʻana i ka mōʻaukala aupuni-komuniti Romanian:
https://stefanteris.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/atlas-istoric-geografic-al-neamului-romc3a2nesc_07.jpg
https://tortenelemportal.hu/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/roman-9-13-sz.jpg
ʻO ia ke aʻo ʻana o ka moʻolelo Romanian national-communist me ka hoʻomāinoino lāhui. Ma ke kūkākūkā ʻana, ʻike wau e hoʻopiʻi ana nā mea hoʻohana e hoʻololi nei kekahi mau mea hoʻohana Romanian i nā palapala mōʻaukala:
https://imgpile.com/images/xv3Slk.jpg
https://imgpile.com/images/K1Iof1.jpg
ʻO ka wehe ʻana iā Transylvania mai Hungary medieval he mea hoʻopunipuni, inā mākou e nānā i nā palapala honua mōʻaukala Pelekane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_mediterranean_1097.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_in_the_14th_Century.jpg
Manaʻo wau, ʻaʻole e lilo ka mea hoʻoponopono Hungarian i lāhui Hungarian no ka mea ua ʻōlelo ka poʻe ʻāina ʻo Romanian "Ua noho ʻo Hungary iā Transylvania wale nō i ka makahiki 1300" inā ʻike lākou he ʻokoʻa a hōʻike mai nā palapala honua iā mākou i kahi moʻolelo ʻē aʻe.
Ua nānā wale au i kekahi mau hoʻopiʻi a nā mea hoʻoponopono o kēia manawa:
Ua hoʻopiʻi ka hōʻike kumu i kēia mea hoʻoponopono i ka wehe ʻana i ka mea mōʻaukala Romanian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1182605334
ʻIke wau i ka ʻōlelo a ka mea hoʻoponopono "e wehe i ke kope" a hiki iā mākou ke ʻike i kēlā ʻike i loko o ka ʻatikala, ʻaʻole ia he wehe ʻia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#13th_century
Manaʻo wau he mau hoʻoponopono cherry wale nō, akā ʻo ka mea nāna i hōʻiliʻili iā lākou ʻaʻole ʻike i ke kiʻi holoʻokoʻa. Manaʻo wau ʻaʻole maikaʻi ka hoʻoulu ʻana i kekahi i kekahi.
ʻO ka manaʻo ʻo Daco-Roman he kumu noʻonoʻo ʻo Romanian nationalist, ʻoiai ke hōʻole nei ka mōʻaukala Hungarian holoʻokoʻa. No laila, ʻaʻole ia he "network of nationalist Hungarians" inā hoʻohui nā mea hoʻoponopono Hungarian i nā ʻike ma Wikipedia ʻaʻole ia ka manaʻo o ka nationalist Romanian. ʻAʻole e lilo koke nā mea hoʻoponopono Hungarian i "nationalists" no ka mea he ʻokoʻa ko lākou manaʻo ma mua o ka manaʻo ʻo Romanian nationalist. Ma ke ala, ua hōʻike ʻia ka manaʻo Romanian ma ka English Wiki e pili ana i nā ʻatikala pili Romanian, e nānā iā ʻoe iho.
Hoʻopau i kēia ma Hungarian a me ka ʻōlelo Pelekania: https://www.reddit.com/r/hungary/comments/1b73sbh/álhír_és_uszítás_terjed_hogy_magyar_szerkesztők/
Ma ka ʻaoʻao kamaʻilio Wiki, ʻōlelo ka poʻe hoʻoponopono, ʻaʻole ʻae ka poʻe hahai radical o ka manaʻo Daco-Roman inā hōʻike ʻia nā manaʻo moʻolelo ʻē aʻe ma Wikipedia Wikipedia ma mua o kā lākou moʻolelo. ʻO ia ke kumu e hoʻopiʻi nei lākou ʻo "Hungarian nationalist network rewriting wiki" inā ʻaʻole wale kā lākou moʻolelo i hōʻike ʻia ma laila he ʻoiaʻiʻo loa.
No ke aha e pili ai kēia? ʻO ka pilikia, inā he, no nā mea kākau moʻolelo. ʻAʻole pau ka pūnāwai o ka poʻe lapuwale.